By ANDY BARR,POLITICO
He is certain Obama’s a socialist
Rep. Paul Broun (R-Ga.) said Thursday that he does not know if President Barack Obama is either a citizen or a Christian.
Broun made the claim during an interview with Sirius XM host Pete Dominick,which was first flagged by the liberal blog Think Progress.
Asked if he thought the president is an “American citizen and a Christian,” Broun first responded,“I’m not going to get involved in that.”
But pressed on whether he thought Obama is a citizen,he said “I don’t know.”
“Is he a Christian?” Dominick then asked.
“I don’t know that,” Broun responded,explaining that “I’m a Christian but only me and the Lord know that for sure.”
The Georgia congressman spent much of the rest of the interview attacking Obama as a “socialist.”
“I know he is,” a socialist,Broun said. “You look at his own writings. He said when he was in college he leaned to Marxist tendencies and is linked to Marxist professors. He joined Marxists clubs. And look at who he’s put in his administration,they’re devout socialists.”
This is an excerpt from an essay by Mario Apuzzo [attorney for Charles Kerchner,Commander USNR (Retired) Lead Plaintiff,Kerchner v Obama &Congress]:
"If Obama was born in Hawaii (a fact which he has yet to conclusively prove by presenting a contemporaneous birth certificate created in 1961 when he was born and not a Certification of Live Birth created in 2007 and posted on the internet in 2008),which would make him a dual citizen from birth of the United States and Great Britain,he could qualify as a “Citizen of the United States”under a liberal and questionable interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment. But because his father was not a United States citizen when Obama was born,he was born subject to a foreign power which he inherited from his father. Being born subject to a foreign power like a naturalized citizen,he is not an Article II “natural born Citizen”and therefore is not eligible to be President and Commander in Chief of the Military of the United States."
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2010/03/obama-maybe-cit…
Never in our history have we had someone filling the role as commander in chief that was not only unqualified but probably NOT qualified as we have in this person…Lets say the experiment is over and do what needs to be done if he was elected illegitimately,then his whole cabinet needs to be thrown out with him. And while were at it lets impeach Nancy and her ilk in congress too,oh yeah,and Harry and his ilk in the senate. well on second thought we'll let them hear from the voters and pack their bags…
IMPEACH OBAMA IN 2010
http://www.impeachobamacampaign.com/
What I keep asking is,"how can ONE person be so POWEFUL?"How can the obama admin. get away with all of the obvious laws they are breaking,and get away with it? Are there no honest people left in Washington? Is there on one in the Republican Party with a Back Bone? Obama has committed so many acts of complete non-givea care of what the American People want,and still NO ONE has STOOD UP to him. WHY?
when the politician from S.C. said "you lie "my first gut reaction was…it's about time someone had the backbone to stand up and call it like it is …. Nancy Pelosi looked like she was gonna kill someone …. we need more of these sort of Statesmen/ women …we need to let ALL politicians know that if they are not for The Constitution they are not for US…..
Excellent question Bama Nanny. "Why has NO ONE STOOD UP to Obama? Why has he hired teams of attorneys to keep all of his records secret,from Official Birth Certificate,kindergarten records and on through post-graduate work,medical records,etc. etc. Never before has anyone gotten away with this big COVER-UP! The media (especially the MSM) have merely looked the other way and have been doing extreme injustice to the American people by their Media Malpractice. Obama has spent over &1.5 million on his teams of attorneys as well as others to keep all under wrap. Sunshine is the best disinfectant! Americans are beginning to wake up and demand the TRUTH!
Let's put this to rest –show us your official birth certificates,and official papers from university. It is that simple.
Obamacare would be "Unlawful"and Congress People who vote for
it are equally Treasonists and liable for Impeachment.
Obama has posted the official birth certificate of Hawaii,which is the only birth document that Hawaii currently sends out. It no longer sends out copies of the original birth certificate (http://www.starbulletin.com/columnists/kokualine/…
The facts on the posted birth certificate–that Obama was born in Hawaii in 1961–were twice confirmed by the two top officials of the Department of Health of Hawaii,who are members of a Republican governor's administration.
All children born in the USA who become citizens of the USA are Natural Born Citizens. The citizenship of a parent has no effect on Natural Born Citizen status,nor does dual nationality. ALL children born in the USA,except for the children of foreign diplomats,are Natural Born Citizens.
"What Obama or some other unknown person posted on the internet is not a birth certificate (BC). Rather,he/she posted a digital image and picture of a questionable "certification of live birth"(COLB) which at best is only prima facie evidence of the place of his birth. The prima facie value of this document fails in light of numerous existing factual circumstances which contradict the COLB's validity and which have not been adequately explained by Obama."
"Despite the numerous law suits that have been filed against Obama,he continues to refuse to release his original birth certificate and has opted rather to spend large sums of money using lawyers to defend himself and to cause the courts and litigants to expend large amounts of time and resources pursuing litigation against him and other third parties."
"No public official in Hawaii has publicly confirmed with any conclusive and credible evidence that Obama was born in Hawaii. Whatever statements Director of Hawaiian Department of Heath,Fukino,has made are not conclusive on the question of whether Obama was born in Hawaii. What is lacking is what information the Department is relying upon to make its statements. Just from her statement alone,we also do not know what evidence exists in the Department of Health file to corroborate what is stated in the “original birth certificate.”
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2009…
"The primary issue is whether Obama is an Article II "natural born Citizen,"not whether he was born in the U.S."
"The distinction between "citizen"and "natural born Citizen"is based on the law of nations which became part of our national common law. According to that law as explained by Vattel in his,The Law of Nations,a "citizen"is simply a member of the civil society. To become a "citizen"is to enter into society as a member thereof. On the other hand,a "natural born Citizen"is a child born in the country of two citizen parents who have already entered into and become members of the society."
"Obama's father was born in Kenya when it was a British colony. When he came to America,he was probably here on a student visa and he never became a legal resident of the U.S. or an immigrant."
"If Obama was born in Hawaii,at best,he is a U.S. "citizen"under the 14th Amendment and federal statute. But he is not a "natural born Citizen"under the Constitution,for at the time of his birth under the British Nationality Act 1948 his father was a British subject and Obama himself through descent was also a British subject."
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2009/07/what-to-tell-bi…
In 1961 there were 4 ways to receive a Certificate of Birth. The certificate Obama presented is simply a Certificate that says he is a Born Human Being. Under the Hawaii birth laws at that time,the document Obama possesses is obtained in a simple manner saying he was born at home and another must verify even if the other person s in another country. Further More,Obama went to a Christian school in Indonesia where he registered as a muslim. In indonesia if a child is a muslim he must register as such and the Christian school must teach him muslim religion.
Re:"What Obama or some other unknown person posted on the internet is not a birth certificate (BC). Rather,he/she posted a digital image and picture of a questionable "certification of live birth"(COLB) which at best is only prima facie evidence of the place of his birth. "
Answer:A Web posting is of course a digital image. What else could it be? In order to show anything to a large group a photo has to be made. However,Obama showed the physical copy of the document to both FactCheck and Politifact,and as I said the officials in Hawaii have said twice that the facts on the COLB have been confirmed by the facts on the original document in the files. Thus there exists a physical copy of the official birth certificate of Hawaii,and it shows that Obama was born in Hawaii.
Re:"The prima facie value of this document fails in light of numerous existing factual circumstances which contradict the COLB's validity and which have not been adequately explained by Obama."
Answer:What "facts?"You are not referring to the grandmother tape are you? If you listen to the complete tape,you will hear her say that Obama was born in Hawaii. . Listen to the complete tape,until after the question “Whereabouts was he born?”http://www.obamacrimes.info/Telephone_Interview_w…
So there is not the slightest evidence or even a credible report that Obama was born anywhere else than Hawaii.
Re:"Despite the numerous law suits that have been filed against Obama,he continues to refuse to release his original birth certificate."
Answer. Not true. All made up. Obama has not refused. He has released the only birth certificate that he can release,the only on that he has. Hawaii sends out only the Certification of Live Birth. It no longer sends out the original birth certificate to ANYONE (http://www.starbulletin.com/columnists/kokualine/…
Re:'and has opted rather to spend large sums of money using lawyers to defend himself and to cause the courts and litigants to expend large amounts of time and resources pursuing litigation against him."
Answer:All made up,and you should know better. There has never been a lawsuit against Obama simply for his birth certificate or simply for records. The vast majority of the lawsuits tried to stop the election;after that,the vast majority after the election tried to stop the Electoral College from voting,the Congress from certifying the election or stop the Inauguration.
Re:""No public official in Hawaii has publicly confirmed with any conclusive and credible evidence that Obama was born in Hawaii. "
Answer:The official birth certificate of the state is itself conclusive. The officials–who happen to be members of a Republican governor's administration–merely said TWICE that the original document in the files also shows that Obama was born in Hawaii. They have no reason to lie,and if they were caught in a lie,they would suffer by being fired–at the very least.
Re:"Whatever statements Director of Hawaiian Department of Heath,Fukino,has made are not conclusive on the question of whether Obama was born in Hawaii. "
Answer:They confirm the official birth certificate,which is conclusive. It clearly says on it "born in Hawaii."There is no way to get a birth certificate that says "born in Hawaii"unless there is proof that the child was born in Hawaii. The Certification of Live Birth is accepted as proof of birth in the USA by the US State Department and the branches of the US military.
Re:"What is lacking is what information the Department is relying upon to make its statements. "
They have no reason to release that information,and in fact they were not asked for it. What we know from their statements is that the original document says on it clearly that Obama was born in Hawaii. There is no way to get a birth certificate in Hawaii that says on it "born in Hawaii"unless there is proof that the child was born in Hawaii. It is likely that the original birth certificate is an ordinary hospital birth certificate from Kapiolani Hospital.
Re:'Just from her statement alone,we also do not know what evidence exists in the Department of Health file to corroborate what is stated in the “original birth certificate.”
Answer:If there were credible reports that Obama was born outside of Hawaii,this would be necessary. Since there are no such reports,the official birth certificate and the repeated confirmations of the officials in Hawaii are overwhelming proof that he was born in Hawaii.
In fact,we have far more proof that Obama was born in Hawaii than that George W. Bush was born in Connecticut,or Clinton in Arkansas,or JFK in MA.
Re his father affecting his natural born citizen status.
Answer:It doesn't. It does not affect Natural Born status at all.
If you are born in the USA,and you are a citizen of the USA due to that birth,then you are a Natural Born Citizen. Both parents could be foreigners,and you would still be a Natural Born Citizen because the original meaning of Natural Born was simply "born in the country except for the children of foreign diplomats."
Vattel was a Swiss monarchist who never recommended elections and who never recommended that the leader of a country should be a citizen of that country,much less a two-parent-citizen citizen. He gives several examples of countries picking their leaders from the nobility of other countries,and he never says that that is a bad thing. The meaning of Natural Born does not come from Vattel. It comes from the British common law,in which any child born in the country (unless the child of foreign diplomats) was considered Natural Born.
I see you are using the standard technique of spreading disinformation when unable to deal with the facts. You would have people believe that Obama cannot authorize the release of his vital recordS (yes,plural –we need to see everything) from Hawaii and application/admission records from Occidental,Columbia and Harvard (there are many other Obama-related records either sealed or missing).
==============
Example of an attempt to mislead:"There is no way to get a birth certificate that says "born in Hawaii"unless there is proof that the child was born in Hawaii."
"When Obama was born in 1961,Hawaii had in effect the Certificate of Hawaiian Birth Program which it established in 1911 and which it terminated in 1972. Someone could under Act 96 get a certificate claiming a Hawaiian birth even if he was physically born in a foreign country by an adult or parent falsely claiming to the director of health that he was born in Hawaii when in fact he was born abroad. Hence,because of the contradictory evidence that exists such as statements made by relatives and newspaper reporters in Kenya and elsewhere regarding where he was born,plaintiffs are entitled to pierce the alleged COLB and examine the file that is in the possession of the Hawaiian Secretary of State which may contain a sworn application/petition in which some party set forth circumstantially all the facts upon which the application rested and supporting sworn affidavits of witnesses."
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2009/12/what-is-putativ…
==============
Anyone interested in learning FACTS,not the usual "spin"we get from the Obama supporters –here are a few links:
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/
http://www.thepostemail.com/
and
“I have nothing to hide but I’m hiding it.”
http://thesteadydrip.blogspot.com/2009/04/aka-oba…
WHAT IS WITH YOU-REP. BROUN??? DON'T YOU KNOW OBAMMIE IS AN ILLEGAL FAKE ALIEN AND BOUGHT TO THE POSITION HE IS UNWORTHY OF.ARE YOU AND THE REST OF THE DUD'S IN WASHINGTON AFRAID OF OBAMMIE???WHY?? WE NEED SOME ONE IN WASHINGTON-WITH BALLS-TO STAND UP TO OBAMMIE AND GET ALL THE -ASKED FOR LEGAL PAPERS.YOU AND ALL OF CONGRESS NEED IMPEACHED ALONG WITH OBAMMIE,REID,PELOSI AND FED TO TALABAN.ALL OF WASHINGTON ARE INFECTED WITH LIAR'S,NO COMMON SENSE,NO ONE KNOWS WHAT THE TRUTH IS MARXISTS,MUSLIM JIHADIST-COMMUNIST-WE NEED TO GET RID OF ALL OF YOU.YOU AREN'T NEEDED WHEN YOU HAVE NO "BALLS"TO STAND UP TO THE ENEMIES.
It is you who are spreading the disinformation.
For example,the Certification of Hawaiian Birth. That is not a birth certificate;it is a certification,and it is always referred to as a certification. It is different from a Certification of Live Birth,which is a birth certificate and is always referred to as a birth certificate. The Certification of Hawaiian birth program was a special program,not a birth certificate.
Obama has an original birth certificate in his file. The two officials said in their first announcement that they had seen an original birth CERTIFICATE in the file. Moreover,even a Certification of Hawaiian Birth required witnesses to the birth to actually appear at the government offices to swear to the place of birth unless the child was one year old. Even the Certification of Hawaiian Birth would not say “born in Hawaii”on it unless the witnesses swore that the child was born in Hawaii. (The Sun Yat Sen incident took place nearly sixty years earlier,and in that case the witnesses lied.)
Now,as for the college records. There is no law that says that president has to show them,and no president has shown all or even most of the records you say Obama should show. Yes,some presidents have voluntarily shown grade point averages,but no president has been forced to do so,and it would be bad for future presidents if one were. If you are referring to the allegation that Obama was a foreign student,that is made up by birthers. Both the Indonesian government and the US State Department in a legal filing have said that Obama was never a citizen of Indonesia. If he had taken financial aid as a foreign student,it would have leaked by now. So,this is all made-up crap.
Re:“a Hawaiian birth even if he was physically born in a foreign country by an adult or parent falsely claiming to the director of health that he was born in Hawaii when in fact he was born abroad.”
Answer:Only on a Certification of Hawaiian Birth,not on a birth certificate,and Obama had a birth certificate,and it said “born in Hawaii”on it,as the officials said. Moreover the provision of one adult swearing applied only to children at least a year old,meaning a one year delay. There was no delay as confirmed by the notices in the newspapers ten days after the birth (which would have been a normal delay until the weekend and the next Monday after the first weekend after the birth).
Re:“statements made by relatives.”
Answer. NO relative has ever said that Obama was born in Kenya. His Kenyan grandmother actually said that he was born in Hawaii,confirming the birth certificate. It is one of the biggest lies of the professional birthers that she said that Obama was born in Kenya. In the complete tape recording,and the transcript to it,she can be heard saying “America,Hawaii”right after the question “whereabouts was he born?”Listen to the complete tape,until after the question “Whereabouts was he born?”http://www.obamacrimes.info/Telephone_Interview_w…
Re:“and newspaper reporters in Kenya.”
No newspaper has ever done an investigative article or any article saying “Obama was born in Hawaii based on our reporting.”You are referring to a Kenyan newspaper that simply said “Kenyan born.”This did not refer to the place of birth but to the fact that he was born of a Kenyan father. Born of a Kenyan father meant to that newspaper “Kenyan born.”
A far more reliable newspaper than the Kenyan newspaper,the Wall Street Journal,said:
“In truth,Obama has proved that he is a native of Hawaii,and this proof would hold up in any legal or administrative proceeding.”
And it concluded:
“Obama has already provided a legal birth certificate demonstrating that he was born in Hawaii. No one has produced any serious evidence to the contrary. Absent such evidence,it is unreasonable to deny that Obama has met the burden of proof. We know that he was born in Honolulu as surely as we know that Bill Clinton was born in Hope,Ark.,or George W. Bush in New Haven,Conn.”
Re:“plaintiffs are entitled to pierce the alleged COLB and examine the file that is in the possession of the Hawaiian Secretary of State which may contain a sworn application/petition in which some party set forth circumstantially all the facts upon which the application rested and supporting sworn affidavits of witnesses."
NO they are not. They have no legal right to do it. But,if the original were shown,it would show exactly what the two officials of Hawaii have said repeatedly,that there is an original birth certificate in the file and it says on it that Obama was born in Hawaii.
Then why doesn’t Obama show it,you may ask. You comment:“You would have people believe that Obama cannot authorize the release of his vital recordS.”
I have commented on the college records. To make that clear,he can release those if he wants to,but he doesn’t have to,and they wouldn’t show anything if he did. And,if he did it to make birthers happy,there will be Democrats who demand the same thing of the next Republican president on some made-up allegation.
The birth certificate is different. The officials in Hawaii have clearly said that they no longer send out the original birth certificate TO ANYONE. To be sure,they Might send a copy if Obama asked for a special favor,but they also might not (they are members of a Republican governor’s administration,so why do special favors for a Democrat?) Also,he would be asking for something that no one else gets,which would be unfair.
And finally,it is unnecessary since the two officials have confirmed the fact that he was born in Hawaii twice and the Certification of Live Birth is the official birth certificate of Hawaii,and it is accepted as proof of birth in the USA by the US State Department and the branches of the military.
Getting back to the Kenyan allegation,it is simply made-up baloney. The grandmother never said that he was born in Kenya. But,if he had been,there would have been proof of it in the form of a US document filed at the US State Department. (After all,you cannot get a Kenyan-born infant from Kenya to the USA without a US visa or a US passport. No such document has been found,and the Republicans were in charge of the State Department until July 20,2009.)
The National Review commented:
“The theory that Obama was born in Kenya,that he was smuggled into the U.S.,and that his parents somehow hoodwinked Hawaiian authorities into falsely certifying his birth in Oahu,is crazy stuff.”
For anyone reading these exchanges,what you are seeing is how Obama supporters deal with FACTS —they ignore them. The idea is to repeat the same falsehoods over and over. They want to pull their opponents into an endless loop. Obama keeps his past hidden because he must. Of course,he could not do this without the backing of "THE SYSTEM".
"Why has Obama employed a legion of private and government attorneys to avoid presenting a legitimate birth certificate and college records?"—Citizen Wells
"During the election,then Senator Obama published a statement at his website which said that his birth status was “governed”by the British Nationality Act of 1948. Can you please tell the American people how a natural born citizen of the United States can be governed –at birth –by British law?"—Leo Donofrio
"Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive"—Sir Walter Scott
=============
Some interesting articles:
"Requests for Obama’s birth certificate deemed “vexatious"
"AS CITIZEN INVESTIGATORS CLOSE IN ON EVIDENCE SHOWING SECRET DEALINGS TO SUPPORT UNSUBSTANTIATED OBAMA CLAIMS"
http://www.thepostemail.com/2010/02/21/requests-f…
—-
"HI Director of Department of Health Perjures Herself before HI Senate Committee"
"STATEMENTS SEEN AS ATTEMPT TO DEFEND HERSELF AND DEPARTMENT FROM INQUIRIES REGARDING CONFLICTING PUBLIC STATEMENTS ON OBAMA’S VITAL RECORDS"
http://www.thepostemail.com/2010/03/09/hi-directo…
—-
"Civil Rights complaint filed with State of Hawaii"
"ACCUSES HAWAII HEALTH DEPARTMENT PERSONNEL OF PERFORMING INTERNET BACKGROUND CHECK AFTER INCRIMINATING EMAIL EXPOSED"
http://www.thepostemail.com/2010/03/10/civil-righ…
ALERT—UPDATE—ALERT—UPDATE—ALERT—-UPDATE—
The fraud POTUS doesn't have the pull and authority to demand Hawaii Dept. Of Health issue his very own original Certificate of Live Birth!!!!
News at 6!!!!
You said:“For anyone reading these exchanges,what you are seeing is how Obama supporters deal with FACTS —they ignore them.”
It is you who ignore the facts. The facts are that Obama has the official birth certificate of Hawaii,which says that he was born in Honolulu,Hawaii,and the facts on it were confirmed by the officials in Hawaii,who happen to be members of a Republican governor’s administration. They have said that the original document in the files was a birth certificate,not a Certification of Hawaiian birth.
Re:“The idea is to repeat the same falsehoods over and over. “
It is YOU who are repeating the same falsehoods over and over.
You said:"Why has Obama employed a legion of private and government attorneys to avoid presenting a legitimate birth certificate and college records?"
Answer:This is baloney. There was never a single lawsuit against Obama just for his birth certificate or just for documents of any kind. Virtually all the lawsuits were to stop the election,stop the Electoral College from voting or stop the confirmation of the election by Congress. Obama has already presented a legitimate birth certificate,the OFFICIAL birth certificate of Hawaii.
Re:"During the election,then Senator Obama published a statement at his website which said that his birth status was “governed”by the British Nationality Act of 1948. Can you please tell the American people how a natural born citizen of the United States can be governed –at birth –by British law?"—Leo Donofrio.
This is true. His birth was governed,but it has no effect at all. Neither the citizenship of the parents nor dual nationality has any effect on Natural Born Citizen status,which simply refers to citizens who were born in the USA,as Obama was. I have already cited law cases that refer to the US-born children of one or two foreign citizens as Natural Born Citizens.
As for the allegations that the officials in Hawaii perjured themselves,those are the allegations of birthers. There is no proof,no confirmation of any kind. They simply make claims.
Noticed your comments at Jefferson's Rebels. jtx's response:
"Your self-serving words should have been accompanied by some sort of a disclaimer informing all readers that you are a paid-for (by tax money) Flying Monkey,e.g. an Obama-fancier that is more than willing to spew such nonsense about on as many blogs as possible.
In fact,every point you attempt to proffer as correct has been refuted multiple times. One wonders why you persist in such nonsense in view of things like the link to the Complaint of Election Fraud in TX linked above. Perhaps you'd like to "rethink"you posting or –better yet –just be honest and remain silent."
http://jeffersonsrebels.blogspot.com/2010/03/shal…
============================
In my previous post,I linked to:
"Civil Rights complaint filed with State of Hawaii Ombudsman"
Kathleen Gotto is the person filing the complaint. She has posted a comment:
http://www.thepostemail.com/2010/03/10/civil-righ…
Answer:The Certification of Live Birth is the official birth certificate of Hawaii,and it is the ONLY one that Hawaii currently issues. Hawaii no longer sends out copies of the original birth certificate (
http://www.starbulletin.com/columnists/kokualine/… So,Obama has posted and shown to both FactCheck AND Politifact the official birth certificate of Hawaii. Yes,it is a short-form birth certificate,but when it says “born in Hawii”on it,as Obama’s does,it is accepted as proof of birth in the USA by the US State Department and the branches of the military. And,in Obama’s case the facts on the document—that he was born in Hawaii in 1961—were twice confirmed by the two top officials of the Department of Health of Hawaii.
If anyone is following this "discussion",there are additional lengthy responses to Ohio's disinformation at Jefferson's Rebels from jtx and KeithAllenLehman —in the comment section of the post:"Shalifa Williamson:Witness to Election Fraud in the 2008 General Election".
http://jeffersonsrebels.blogspot.com/2010/03/shal…
=================
Two more sites that report what MSM hides:
http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/
http://news.therightsideoflife.com/
You notice that Gordo does not present any facts or discuss the issues. He merely refers people to another site.
The facts are that Obama was born in Hawaii. He has shown the official birth certificate of Hawaii,and it has been confirmed by the two officials of the Department of Health of Hawaii,and his Kenyan grandmother said that he was born in Hawaii.
The Wall Street Journal commented:
"In truth,Obama has proved that he is a native of Hawaii,and this proof would hold up in any legal or administrative proceeding."
Facts and ohio are strangers –they never met.
—-
Let's expand the questions about Obama to include this:
"Did Next Commander-in-Chief Falsify Selective Service Registration? Never Actually Register? Obama’s Draft Registration Raises Serious Questions"
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/4428/exclusive-did…
—-
"Obama conspiracy –It’s no longer just a theory"
http://www.sonorannews.com/archives/2010/100303/w…
To be sure,they Might send a copy if Obama asked for a special favor,but they also might not (they are members of a Republican governor’s administration,so why do special favors for a Democrat?)<<<the conspiracy>>>Also,he would be asking for something that no one else gets,which would be unfair<<<he seems to think he's entitiled since he continues telling all,"I'm the President(not) at the healthcare summit…..you're losing this battle…….move on Obot…>>>>
ALERT—UPDATE—ALERT—UPDATE—ALERT—-UPDATE—
The fraud POTUS doesn't have the pull and authority to demand Hawaii Dept. Of Health issue his very own original Certificate of Live Birth!!!!
News at 6!!!!
Hey,Gordo………if the poster Ohio is so brilliant and 'trusting'of the online copy of the BC from Hawaii as the original(laughing here),let him pay his mortgage with a COPY of a check,pay any bill with a COPY of a check,pay a fine in court with a COPY of a check,and be sure to show a COPY of your child's BC when signing up for little league,NOT THE ORIGINAL…..that'll go Over real well.
Ohio isn't this stupid.. well,maybe HE(SHE) is.
From CDR Kerchner:
"I Believe The Fix Was In for the 2008 Election and The Cover Up is Still Going Strong!"
"I believe that the RNC and DNC at the highest levels in 2008 were both complicit in shutting down all discussion of Obama's constitutional eligibility issue in the Congress,Main Stream Media,Print Press,and in the leading conservative Talk Show radio stations. I believe that the RNC and the DNC were complicit in subverting Article II,Section I,Clause 5 of our Constitution as to the eligibility requirements for the Office of the President,i.e.,the person eligible for that office must be a "natural born Citizen",i.e.,one born in the country to parents who are both citizens of the country such that the child born has singular and sole allegiance at birth to the USA and no citizenship at birth with any other country via his parents or due to the place or location of birth."
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2010/01/i-believe-fix-w…
==============================
Keeping ALL his HI vital records sealed is Obama's choice. The HI government is not working against Obama,rather it is protecting him.
——————
"Requests for Obama’s birth certificate deemed “vexatious"
"AS CITIZEN INVESTIGATORS CLOSE IN ON EVIDENCE SHOWING SECRET DEALINGS TO SUPPORT UNSUBSTANTIATED OBAMA CLAIMS"
http://www.thepostemail.com/2010/02/21/requests-f…
—–
"HI Director of Department of Health Perjures Herself before HI Senate Committee"
"STATEMENTS SEEN AS ATTEMPT TO DEFEND HERSELF AND DEPARTMENT FROM INQUIRIES REGARDING CONFLICTING PUBLIC STATEMENTS ON OBAMA’S VITAL RECORDS"
http://www.thepostemail.com/2010/03/09/hi-directo…
—–
"Hawaii oversight agency wants “vexatious requester”law passed"
"AGENCY SUBMITS TESTIMONY IN FAVOR OF AMENDMENT OVER WHICH IT WOULD HAVE JURISDICTION"
http://www.thepostemail.com/2010/03/11/hawaii-ove…
Re the comment:"if the poster Ohio is so brilliant and 'trusting'of the online copy of the BC from Hawaii as the original(laughing here),let him pay his mortgage with a COPY of a check,pay any bill with a COPY of a check,pay a fine in court with a COPY of a check,and be sure to show a COPY of your child's BC when signing up for little league,NOT THE ORIGINAL…..that'll go Over real well."
Obama has shown the physical copy of his birth certificate to both Politifact and FactCheck. So he has physical copies. Moreover,the repeated confirmation by the officials in Hawaii indicates that they indeed sent him the document. So,he can show the official birth certificate if anyone were to ask for it.
As you probably know,no president has ever shown his birth certificate to anyone until Obama showed it. Sure,most of us saw an image of the document. How else to show it? But the physical copy of the document is there.
You said:
"The fraud POTUS doesn't have the pull and authority to demand Hawaii Dept. Of Health issue his very own original Certificate of Live Birth!!!!"
Why demand the original when the official document is sufficient,especially when it has been confirmed twice by the officials in Hawaii? Why demand the original,when the official is sufficient AND you would be asking a state to give you something that it does not normally give to everyone else?
And besides,the official birth sufficient is sufficient. Hawaii does not allow the Department of Health to issue a birth certificate–either long form or short form–that says on it "born in Hawaii"unless there is proof that the child was born in Hawaii. Hawaii's official birth certificates that say "born in Hawaii"on them are accepted as proof of birth in the USA by the US State Department and the branches of the military. Obama's birth certificate says "born in Hawaii"on it.
"No public official in Hawaii has publicly confirmed with any conclusive and credible evidence that Obama was born in Hawaii. Whatever statements Director of Hawaiian Department of Heath,Fukino,has made are not conclusive on the question of whether Obama was born in Hawaii. What is lacking is what information the Department is relying upon to make its statements. Just from her statement alone,we also do not know what evidence exists in the Department of Health file to corroborate what is stated in the “original birth certificate.”"
"Obama has refused all effort to have him release the following documents,relying on sealing of records and/or privacy laws:Punahou High School records,Occidental College records,Columbia College records,Columbia Thesis paper,Harvard College records,Selective Service Registration,medical records,Illinois State Senate records,Illinois State Senate schedule,Law practice client list,Certified Copy of original Birth Certificate,Harvard Law Review articles that were published,University of Chicago scholarly articles,exit and entry immigration records covering all of Obama's travels out of the United States;passports;and record of baptism,if any."
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2009/12/what-is-putativ…
================================
“SMRSTRAUSS:The Total Reveal &Their Tangled Web”
"On March 11,2010,Paul and Ann began using completely new monikers and email addresses. Furthermore,they have recently started using an anonymous ip server. At this writing,they are using Ohio (clearly this state has special meaning to the Strauss's) as a moniker and two new emails:…"
"As you review the table below,notice the start date of his/their activity,and how the ip addresses and locations changed over time. While it's possible Paul and Ann have traveled a lot since Sept/Oct 2008,it is also possible they have been working with a group of individuals,all using the same moniker. This table,by the way,doesn't represent even the tip of the smrstrauss iceberg."
http://jeffersonsrebels.blogspot.com/2010/03/smrs…
You said:“No public official in Hawaii has publicly confirmed with any conclusive and credible evidence that Obama was born in Hawaii. “
Why should they? The official birth certificate of Hawaii is sufficient proof. AND the officials in Hawaii have stated twice that they looked into the files and the original document in the files confirms the facts on the official birth certificate.
You said:“Whatever statements Director of Hawaiian Department of Heath,Fukino,has made are not conclusive on the question of whether Obama was born in Hawaii.”
Yes they are.
You said:“What is lacking is what information the Department is relying upon to make its statements.”
The Department has said twice that the information is contained on the original document in the files.
You said:“Just from her statement alone,we also do not know what evidence exists in the Department of Health file to corroborate what is stated in the “original birth certificate.”"
Why should we have to confirm her statement and that of the other official (three officials in all including the original clerk who made out the Certification form)? NO other president even showed a birth certificate. There is no evidence Obama was born anywhere else than Hawaii. His Kenyan grandmother never said that he was born in Kenya. She said that he was born in Hawaii.
You said:"Obama has refused all effort to have him release the following documents,relying on sealing of records and/or privacy laws:Punahou High School records,Occidental College records,Columbia College records,Columbia Thesis paper,Harvard College records,Selective Service Registration,medical records,Illinois State Senate records,Illinois State Senate schedule,Law practice client list,Certified Copy of original Birth Certificate,Harvard Law Review articles that were published,University of Chicago scholarly articles,exit and entry immigration records covering all of Obama's travels out of the United States;passports;and record of baptism,if any."
This is about the same as any president or any presidential candidate. There is no law that says that Obama or any candidate has to show them. I am willing to bet that in the next presidential campaign,the Republican candidate will not show high school records,detailed college records,college thesis,Selective Service,etc.
"When Obama was born in 1961,Hawaii had in effect the Certificate of Hawaiian Birth Program which it established in 1911 and which it terminated in 1972. Someone could under Act 96 get a certificate claiming a Hawaiian birth even if he was physically born in a foreign country by an adult or parent falsely claiming to the director of health that he was born in Hawaii when in fact he was born abroad. Hence,because of the contradictory evidence that exists such as statements made by relatives and newspaper reporters in Kenya and elsewhere regarding where he was born,plaintiffs are entitled to pierce the alleged COLB and examine the file that is in the possession of the Hawaiian Secretary of State which may contain a sworn application/petition in which some party set forth circumstantially all the facts upon which the application rested and supporting sworn affidavits of witnesses.
Obama says he was born in a hospital. A birth certificate provides the name of the hospital where the birth occurred and the name of the doctor delivering the baby. The COLB does not have this vital corroborating information.
The key point that Obama supporters are redirecting attention away from is that the underlying foundational information supporting his Certification of Live Birth is unknown. This unknown information may not matter much when it comes to an ordinary person. But for someone running for President of the United States and currently sitting in that Office it is of crucial importance."
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2009/12/what-is-putativ…
—–
Obama “I have nothing to hide but I’m hiding it.”
http://thesteadydrip.blogspot.com/2009/04/aka-oba…
You also said:"The COLB does not have this vital corroborating information. "
True,but that is not Obama's fault. The COLB is the official birth certificate of Hawaii. That is what it sends to everyone (http://www.starbulletin.com/columnists/kokualine/… That is what it sent to Obama in 2007. So unless Obama himself has a copy of the original saved from the time of his birth,which is unlikely because many people lose the original,all that he can show is the COLB.
That is the decision of Hawaii. Its current policy is not to send out the original birth certificate to anyone. However,the officials have said that the original shows that Obama was born in Hawaii. In fact,they said it twice.
"Obama is a usurper …To be a "natural born Citizen"as is required in the U.S. Constitution,Article II,Section 1,Clause 5,the person must be born in the country to parents who both are Citizens of the country when the child was born. Obama's father was a British Subject when Obama was born in 1961. Obama's father was never a U.S. Citizen nor was he even an immigrant to the USA. We are a nation of immigrants but Obama Sr. was not one. And under the British Nationality Act of 1948 and international law,Obama (Jr.) was also born a British Subject and thus is a dual-citizen Citizen to this day,if he was born in Hawaii as he claims. To date,he has not conclusively proved exactly where he was born to any investigative controlling legal authority. Photoshop'd digital images and pictures of computerized summary data put on the internet proffered by Obama proves nothing. Computerized records say his birth was "registered"in the Hawaii birth system. That computer data registration record could have been based on false birth location registration testimony by a family member using a simple mail-in form available in 1961. GIGO –false location of birth registration into a data base yields false data out today on a computer print out. The original "ribbon copy"long-form birth records with the names and signatures of medical attendants and of witnesses,if any,to the alleged birth in Hawaii must be examined by experts as well as all his other hidden and sealed records of his early life. If he was born in Kenya as his relatives and news account there claim,then Obama could even be an illegal alien since his mother was not old enough under U.S. laws at that time to convey U.S. citizenship to her child born of a foreign father if the child is born in a foreign country. Obama had dual allegiance at birth if he was born in Hawaii –British via his father and U.S. via his mother."
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2009/12/new-ad-obama-is…
———-
http://www.scribd.com/doc/24392974/Obama-an-Uncon…
You said:"To be a "natural born Citizen"as is required in the U.S. Constitution,Article II,Section 1,Clause 5,the person must be born in the country to parents who both are Citizens of the country when the child was born."
That is simply not true. All citizens of the US who were born in the USA are Natural Born Citizens. That was the original meaning of Natural Born.
You said:"If he was born in Kenya as his relatives and news account there claim,"
He wasn't born in Kenya,and his Kenyan relatives never claimed it. Onoe Kenyan newspaper used the term "Kenyan-born"to indicate that his father was a Kenyan.
This is what the National Review had to say about the idea that Obama was born Kenya:
““The theory that Obama was born in Kenya,that he was smuggled into the U.S.,and that his parents somehow hoodwinked Hawaiian authorities into falsely certifying his birth in Oahu,is crazy stuff.”
You said:"using a simple mail-in form available in 1961. "
Not possible for a Hawaiian birth certificate that says "born in Hawaii"on it,as Obama's does. And not possible within ten days of the actual birth,which dates are shown by the notices in the newspapers.
Since the officials in Hawaii have said twice that Obama was born in Hawaii,it is clear that the document that Obama posted was not forged. If it were forged,action would have been taken by McCain or Hillary,or police or FBI. But there was no action,and instead the officials in Hawaii have said twice that the original birth certificate shows that he was born in Hawaii.
From Obama's site:
"The truth is,Barack Obama was born in the state of Hawaii in 1961,a native citizen of the United States of America."
——
“When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961,in Honolulu,Kenya was a British colony,still part of the United Kingdom’s dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native,Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.‘s children."
http://fightthesmears.com/articles/5/birthcertifi…
—————–
Notice that Obama claims to be a "native citizen",not a "natural born citizen"
"Obama –Maybe a Citizen of the United States but Not a Natural Born Citizen".
"Most probably recognize that United States citizens are created either at birth or at the moment of naturalization. The former is a native (using that term in its modern sense and not in the sense that the Founders used it) and the latter is not. Most probably also recognize that a naturalized citizen is not eligible to be President. But what many fail to recognize is that the event of birth has two natural elements which always have and always will be present in every birth:(1) the place where one was born and (2) the two parents who procreated the child. Hence,some also fail to understand that there are two types of born citizens,one being a born "Citizen of the United States"and the other being a "natural born Citizen."…"
"…If Obama was born in Hawaii (a fact which he has yet to conclusively prove by presenting a contemporaneous birth certificate created in 1961 when he was born and not a Certification of Live Birth created in 2007 and posted on the internet in 2008),which would make him a dual citizen from birth of the United States and Great Britain,he could qualify as a “Citizen of the United States”under a liberal and questionable interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment. But because his father was not a United States citizen when Obama was born,he was born subject to a foreign power which he inherited from his father. Being born subject to a foreign power like a naturalized citizen,he is not an Article II “natural born Citizen”and therefore is not eligible to be President and Commander in Chief of the Military of the United States."
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2010/03/obama-maybe-cit…
From CDR Kerchner:
"I Believe The Fix Was In for the 2008 Election and The Cover Up is Still Going Strong!"
"I believe that the RNC and DNC at the highest levels in 2008 were both complicit in shutting down all discussion of Obama's constitutional eligibility issue in the Congress,Main Stream Media,Print Press,and in the leading conservative Talk Show radio stations.
Both political parties put up questionable candidates in 2008 with issues as to their birth citizenship status. A 3rd party,the Socialist Party,even put a person name Calero on the ballot for President in 2008 in half dozen states and he only had a "green card"and was not even a Citizen,let alone a "natural born Citizen". And the system and media let Calero do it and didn't challenge him in order to keep the lid on the cover-up of the constitutional eligibility issues of the respective presidential candidates of the two major parties. The fix and cover-up was in. Obama was born as a British Subject of a non-U.S. citizen father and McCain was born on the sovereign soil of Panama,not on the military base in the Canal Zone as was touted to the public. Both having issues with their candidates they proceeded to cover up for each other and helped shut down the media and talk radio totally via their respective high contacts in the media industry and elected officials within the sitting Bush administration and in Congress as well as within their own respective presidential campaign organizations. "
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2010/01/i-believe-fix-w…
You said:"The truth is,Barack Obama was born in the state of Hawaii in 1961,a native citizen of the United States of America."
Answer:ALL native born citizens of America are Natural Born Citizens.
——
You saiid:“When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961,in Honolulu,Kenya was a British colony,still part of the United Kingdom’s dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native,Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.‘s children."
Answer:Dual nationality has no effect on Natural Born Citizen status.
You said:“Notice that Obama claims to be a "native citizen",not a "natural born citizen"
Answer:That is right,a native citizen is one of the two types of Natural Born Citizens. The other is the child of two US parents who was born abroad. The only kind of a US citizen who is not a Natural Born Citizen is a Naturalized citizen.
You said:“2) the two parents who procreated the child. Hence,some also fail to understand that there are two types of born citizens,one being a born "Citizen of the United States"and the other being a "natural born Citizen."…"
Answer. The citizenship of the parents has no effect on the Natural Born Citizen status of the child unless we are talking about the child of two US citizens born overseas. If a US citizen is born in the USA,she or he is a Natural Born Citizen.
“Natural born citizen. Persons who are born within the jurisdiction of a national government,i.e. in its territorial limits,or those born of citizens temporarily residing abroad.”—Black’s Law Dictionary,Sixth Edition
You said:“a fact which he has yet to conclusively prove by presenting a contemporaneous birth certificate created in 1961 when he was born and not a Certification of Live Birth created in 2007 and posted on the internet in 2008)”
Answer:The Certification of Live Birth is the current official birth certificate of Hawaii,and it is the only birth certificate that Hawaii issues. Hawaii does not send out the original birth certificate anymore.
You said:“he was born subject to a foreign power which he inherited from his father.”
No he was not. When you are in the USA,you are under the jurisdiction of the USA. The citizenship of the father does not affect this. Dual Nationality does not affect it. If it did,you would be saying that foreigners in the USA do not have to obey US laws. The only kind of foreigners who do not have to,because they are not under our jurisdiction,is foreign diplomats. Obamas’father was not a diplomat. He was simply a foreign student.
You said:“Being born subject to a foreign power like a naturalized citizen.”
A naturalized citizen is different from a US-born citizen who happens to have dual nationality. A naturalized citizen was really born abroad,born under the sovereignty and jurisdiction of a foreign country. A US-born citizen owes complete loyalty to the USA because of her or his place of birth. That is the way that the framers thought of it in any case. They held that allegiance stems ONLY from the place of birth,and that a person could not have dual allegiance. There can be only one allegiance,and that is to the country of the place of birth (which is why naturalized citizens were not allowed.) Today,we may disagree with this,but there are quotations from Madison and others showing that this is what they believed at the time.
You said:""When Obama was born in 1961,Hawaii had in effect the Certificate of Hawaiian Birth Program which it established in 1911 and which it terminated in 1972. Someone could under Act 96 get a certificate claiming a Hawaiian birth even if he was physically born in a foreign country by an adult or parent falsely claiming to the director of health that he was born in Hawaii when in fact he was born abroad."
That is always referred to as a Certificate of Hawaiian Birth. It is not a birth certificate,and is never referred to as a birth certificate. Yet the two officials have said that there is an original birth CERTIFICATE in the file.
Moreover,even a Certificate of Hawaiian Birth cannot say "born in Hawaii"on it unless there is a witness of some kind that the child was actually born in Hawaii. Furthermore,Certificates of Hawaiian Birth are only issued when the child is at least a year old. Yet,Obama's birth in Hawaii was announced in the newspapers about ten days after his birth,indicating that there was no delay.
Finally,there is this witness,who recalls being told of Obamas'birth in Hawaii in 1961. To be sure,this is hearsay,but it tends to confirm birth in Hawaii. The teacher quoted wrote to her father,named Stanley,about the unusual event of a birth to a woman named Stanley. (<a href="http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:7lxgRu-fdYQJ:http://www.buffalonews.com/494/story/554495.html).”target=”_blank”>http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:7lxgRu-fdYQJ:…”target=”_blank”>www.buffalonews.com/494/story/554495.html). To be sure,the doctor who told the teacher may not have been the one who actually delivered the child. In fact,he may have been told about it by another doctor,but still this confirms.
So,we have three officials (the two top officials and the clerk) who say that the original files show that Obama was born in Hawaii. We have a witness who recalls being told of his birth by a doctor at Kapiolani Hospial. AND,we do not have any evidence or even a credible story that Obama was born anywhere else than Hawaii. In fact,his Kenyan grandmother said that he was born in "America,Hawaii"where Obama senior was studying.
"That the “natural born Citizen”clause is based on undivided allegiance and loyalty can be seen from how the Founders distinguished between "citizen"and "natural born Citizen."
By satisfying all conditions of this definition,all other avenues of acquiring other foreign citizenships and allegiances (jus soli or by the soil and jus sanguinis or by descent) are cut off. Having all other means of acquiring other foreign citizenships or allegiances cut off is unity of citizenship which is what the President must have at the time of birth. Additionally,by requiring the child’s parents to be U.S. citizens best assures that those parents most likely will have absorbed American customs and values which,in turn,they will transmit to their child.
When President Obama was born in 1961,under the British Nationality Act of 1948,both his father and he were British subjects/citizens. In 1963,they both became Kenyan citizens. In fact,Mr. Obama’s father was never even a legal resident or immigrant of America. Hence,regardless of where Mr. Obama was born or that he may be a United States citizen under the 14th Amendment,he is not an Article II “natural born Citizen”and not eligible to be President. This ineligibility has absolutely nothing to do with his race or class but all to do with his being born with multiple citizenships and allegiances and not satisfying the strict eligibility requirements of Article II."
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2009/08/why-natural-bor…
"HI Dept. of Health refuses to corroborate that Obama born in Hawaii"
"The Post &Email has received documentation establishing without a doubt that the Hawaii Department of Health categorically refuses to corroborate the July 28,2009 statement of Dr. Chiyome L. Fukino that Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a “natural-born American citizen.”
Since Fukino’s statement has become the fundamental claim to eligibility of Barack Hussein Obama,the failure of her Department to corroborate it in any way establishes that claim as false,by common sense. For honest folk,speaking sincerely,do not conceal corroborating evidence. Nor is there a reason to hide Obama’s vital records unless they prove he is not eligible.
Since the public statement was made,numerous citizens have attempted to understand and verify the claim made by Dr. Fukino in her capacity as Director of the Department of Health for the state of Hawaii. On each occasion the Department has officially refused to show any documentary evidence whatsoever to corroborate Fukino’s press release.
After six months of denials,therefore,it can safely be said that there is no evidence forthcoming that Obama was born in Hawaii or is a “natural-born American Citizen.”
http://www.thepostemail.com/2010/02/19/hi-dept-of…
You said:"That the “natural born Citizen”clause is based on undivided allegiance and loyalty can be seen from how the Founders distinguished between "citizen"and "natural born Citizen."
Every citizen who was not naturalized is a Natural Born Citizen. Every Natural Born Citizen is considered t have undivided loyalties to the USA. Madison said that there is only one criterion of allegiance accepted under US law,the place of birth,and Blackstone argued that a person has only one allegiance,to the country where she was born.
You said:“By satisfying all conditions of this definition,all other avenues of acquiring other foreign citizenships and allegiances (jus soli or by the soil and jus sanguinis or by descent) are cut off. Having all other means of acquiring other foreign citizenships or allegiances cut off is unity of citizenship which is what the President must have at the time of birth. “
This is all mere speculation. The Constitution does not say “two citizen parents,”nor does the Federalist Papers,nor does any letter written by a writer of the Constitution or any US leader at the time,and under the Common Law “Natural Born”just meant born in the country (except for the children of foreign diplomats.”
You said:“Additionally,by requiring the child’s parents to be U.S. citizens best assures that those parents most likely will have absorbed American customs and values which,in turn,they will transmit to their child.”
But the Constitution does not require it. If it required it,it would say that it requires it. If you would like it to say that the parents should be citizens,then propose an amendment to the Constitution that says that. BUT at the moment,it doesn’t say it.
You said:“This ineligibility has absolutely nothing to do with his race or class but all to do with his being born with multiple citizenships and allegiances and not satisfying the strict eligibility requirements of Article II."
Neither dual nationality nor the citizenship of the parents (except for the children of US citizens born outside of the USA) has any effect on Natural Born Citizen status.
Here is a legal definition of Natural Born Citizen,do you see any reference to dual nationality,or any requirement that a child born in the USA have two citizen parents?
“Natural born citizen. Persons who are born within the jurisdiction of a national government,i.e. in its territorial limits,or those born of citizens temporarily residing abroad.”—Black’s Law Dictionary,Sixth Edition
And here is a court case in which a US federal court comments that the US-born children of two foreigners are natural born citizens.
“Mustata v. US Dept. of Justice,179 F.3d 1017 (6th Cir. 1999) (children born in US to two Romanian citizens described as “natural born citizens”of the US):
Petitioners Marian and Lenuta Mustata are citizens of Romania. At the time of their petition,they resided in Michigan with their two minor children,who are natural born citizens of the United States.”
You also said:“"The Post &Email has received documentation establishing without a doubt that the Hawaii Department of Health categorically refuses to corroborate the July 28,2009 statement of Dr. Chiyome L. Fukino that Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a “natural-born American citizen.”
THAT IS BECAUSE THEY HAD ALREADY DONE IT TWICE AND DID NOT FEEL IT NECESSARY TO CORROBORATE IT FOR THE THIRD TIME.
You said:
""HI Dept. of Health refuses to corroborate that Obama born in Hawaii"
Because it has already corroborated twice already and does not think that it has to corroborate a third time.
You said:"That the “natural born Citizen”clause is based on undivided allegiance and loyalty can be seen from how the Founders distinguished between "citizen"and "natural born Citizen."
Every citizen who was not naturalized is a Natural Born Citizen. Every Natural Born Citizen is considered t have undivided loyalties to the USA. Madison said that there is only one criterion of allegiance accepted under US law,the place of birth,and Blackstone argued that a person has only one allegiance,to the country where she was born.
You said:“By satisfying all conditions of this definition,all other avenues of acquiring other foreign citizenships and allegiances (jus soli or by the soil and jus sanguinis or by descent) are cut off. Having all other means of acquiring other foreign citizenships or allegiances cut off is unity of citizenship which is what the President must have at the time of birth. “
This is all mere speculation. The Constitution does not say “two citizen parents,”nor does the Federalist Papers,nor does any letter written by a writer of the Constitution or any US leader at the time,and under the Common Law “Natural Born”just meant born in the country (except for the children of foreign diplomats.”
You said:“Additionally,by requiring the child’s parents to be U.S. citizens best assures that those parents most likely will have absorbed American customs and values which,in turn,they will transmit to their child.”
But the Constitution does not require it. If it required it,it would say that it requires it. If you would like it to say that the parents should be citizens,then propose an amendment to the Constitution that says that. BUT at the moment,it doesn’t say it.
You said:“This ineligibility has absolutely nothing to do with his race or class but all to do with his being born with multiple citizenships and allegiances and not satisfying the strict eligibility requirements of Article II."
Neither dual nationality nor the citizenship of the parents (except for the children of US citizens born outside of the USA) has any effect on Natural Born Citizen status.
Here is a legal definition of Natural Born Citizen,do you see any reference to dual nationality,or any requirement that a child born in the USA have two citizen parents?
“Natural born citizen. Persons who are born within the jurisdiction of a national government,i.e. in its territorial limits,or those born of citizens temporarily residing abroad.”—Black’s Law Dictionary,Sixth Edition
And here is a court case in which a US federal court comments that the US-born children of two foreigners are natural born citizens.
“Mustata v. US Dept. of Justice,179 F.3d 1017 (6th Cir. 1999) (children born in US to two Romanian citizens described as “natural born citizens”of the US):
Petitioners Marian and Lenuta Mustata are citizens of Romania. At the time of their petition,they resided in Michigan with their two minor children,who are natural born citizens of the United States.”
Hypothetical:
In the 1980's,Saddam Hussein (dictator of Iraq) visits New York City. He arranges for a high-price call girl (American) to visit his hotel suite. He uses no "protection". A son is born to Saddam and the American prostitute. Junior lives with his mother in the United States,but does frequently visit his father in Iraq. Junior greatly respects Saddam Hussein and is taught to despise America. At the age of 35,Junior decides to run for the Office of President of the United States. He claims that he is a "natural born"citizen,not just a "native born"citizen. His campaign slogan:"If elected,I'll do to America what my father did to Iraq."He receives support from those who say that being born on US soil is all that matters and that Junior meets the Constitutional requirements for POTUS.
===============================
===============================
"A natural born Citizen needs no law or resolution of Congress to give or clarify citizenship status. Natural born Citizenship status can only be obtained by the facts of nature at the child's birth. This is natural law. This is what the founders and framers of our Constitution required for the singular and most powerful office of the President and Commander in Chief of the military. John Jay and George Washington put that requirement into the Constitution for exactly the reason that the person serving in that office would have no foreign influences on him/her at birth due to the facts and circumstances of his/her citizenship at birth. Only "natural born Citizenship"in the USA per natural law guarantees no other allegiance or citizenship claims by an another country at birth. If you are born on the U.S. soil of parents who are both citizens,no other country can claim you as a Citizen of their country and you are only governed by the laws of the USA at your birth. This is natural law as was codified by Vattel in 1758 in his legal treatise,"The Law of Nations or Principles of Natural Law". The 1775 edition of this legal book was used as a reference by Benjamin Franklin and other founders to set up our new nation in 1776 in the writing of the Declaration of Independence and also in drafting the new form of federal government in 1787 with the writing of our Constitution,the fundamental law of our nation."
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2010/01/i-believe-fix-w…
Concerning your Saddam Hussein example. Here is a similar one. Say that Charles Manson,a US-born mass killer (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Manson) runs for president. Is he eligible?
Look at the Constitution again. It doesn’t bar criminals from being elected president so long as they are Natural Born Citizens.
Why didn’t the framers bar us from voting for people like Manson? Probably because they thought that we are capable of making that decision. The same applies to a US-born child of Saddam Hussein. The protection against she or he being elected president is exactly the same as the protection against Charles Manson being elected president:it is that the voters do not have to vote for that person.
The responsibility for keeping criminals and the children of dictators,and the dictators themselves,from becoming president is held by the voters. Only the voters. That is the only protection we have against a bad US-born person being elected president.
Also,if a child is born of one or two aliens,even one or two illegal aliens,that certainly does not make the child like Saddam Hussein or Charles Manson. That child might be a rather good person after all. So,who decides? The voters,of course.
In any case,there is absolutely no evidence that the writers of the Constitution wanted to bar the US-born children of foreigners from being president. And,as you can see from previously cited cases,the courts ARE ruling that the US-born children of foreigners are Natural Born Citizens. This is hardly surprising since the meaning of Natural Born at the time of the writing of the Constitution was simply “born in the country.”
Re:“This is natural law.”
There are many proponents of natural law,many different philosophers,and they recommend many different things. Vattel,for example,was a monarchist. He did not believe in elections at all,and he gives several examples of countries picking their kings from the nobility of other countries,not even citizens at all,and he never says that that is a bad thing. Locke doesn’t even talk about citizens. He just talks about the rights of the people of the country to make decisions.
You said:“John Jay and George Washington put that requirement into the Constitution for exactly the reason that the person serving in that office would have no foreign influences on him/her at birth due to the facts and circumstances of his/her citizenship at birth.”
The evidence is that they believed that a US-born child would NOT have any foreign influence or influences,and that a US-born child had only one allegiance,to the country where she or he was born. (That is what Blackstone,held.) Moreover,we know that Jay,who wrote the first Constitution of New York,was heavily influenced by the British Common Law (which he wrote into the first Constitution of New York). Thus,it is most likely that he was referring to the common law definition of Natural Born when he wrote to Washington,and the common law definition was “born in the country with the exception of the children of foreign diplomats.”
Re:Vattel. He was used as an expert on INTERNATIONAL LAW. And,he was not heavily relied on in writing the Constitution because his name does not appear in the Federalist Papers at all. Vattel also recommends such things as a state religion,which the founders did not adopt. The authors of the Constitution were about 70% lawyers and judges,and the term “Natural Born”was familiar to them from the Common Law.
There is even a draft of a treaty written by Jay,John Adams and Ben Franklin,in which the rights of a Natural Born British Subject when visiting in the USA are proposed to be the same as a Natural Born US Citizen when visiting in Britain.
It would be absurd to believe that a Natural Born Subject,who does not require two citizen parents,would have the same rights as a Natural Born Citizen who you say does require two US parents. The explanation is simple,both a Natural Born Citizen and a Natural Born Subject merely require birth in the country (except for the children of foreign diplomats.)
“All persons born in the allegiance of the king are natural-born subjects,and all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens. Birth and allegiance go together. Such is the rule of the common law,and it is the common law of this country,as well as of England.”Justice Swayne,United States v. Rhodes,1 Abbott,US 28 (Cir. Ct. Ky 1866)
“Every person born within the United States,its Territories,or districts,whether the parents are citizens or aliens,is a natural-born citizen of the United States in the sense of the Constitution…Natural-born subjects are such as are born within the dominions of the crown of England;that is,within the ligeance,or,as it is generally called,the allegiance of the King;and aliens are such as are born out of it.”……“It makes a man a subject in England,and a citizen here,and is,as Blackstone declares,‘founded in reason and the nature of government’…The English Law made no distinction …in declaring that all persons born within its jurisdiction are natural-born subjects. This law bound the colonies before the revolution,and was not changed afterward.”Rep. Wilson,1866 Civil Rights Act debates. 10 Cong. Globe,39th Cong.,lst Sess. 1115,1117 (1866)
“Natural born citizen. Persons who are born within the jurisdiction of a national government,i.e. in its territorial limits,or those born of citizens temporarily residing abroad.”—Black’s Law Dictionary,Sixth Edition.
That is why such prominent conservative Senators who are also lawyers as Orren Hatch and Lindsay Graham say that a Natural Born Citizen is simply one who was born in the USA:
Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC),said:
“Every child born in the United States is a natural-born United States citizen except for the children of diplomats.”(December 11,2008 letter to constituent)
Senator Orrin G. Hatch (R-UT),said:
“What is a natural born citizen? Clearly,someone born within the United States or one of its territories is a natural born citizen.”(Senate Judiciary Committee hearing hearing on OCTOBER 5,2004
"Concerning your Saddam Hussein example. Here is a similar one. Say that Charles Manson,a US-born mass killer —runs for president. Is he eligible? "
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"The responsibility for keeping criminals and the children of dictators,and the dictators themselves,from becoming president is held by the voters. Only the voters. That is the only protection we have against a bad US-born person being elected president.
Also,if a child is born of one or two aliens,even one or two illegal aliens,that certainly does not make the child like Saddam Hussein or Charles Manson. That child might be a rather good person after all. So,who decides? The voters,of course."
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"…even one or two illegal aliens …"
If anyone is reading these exchanges,the above two paragraphs tell you all that is needed about the approach taken by the Obama supporters —it's all up to the voters —the Constitution does not matter.
They would have people believe "native"and "natural"mean the same thing.
It's an attempt to confuse and conflate.
What if voters are not informed about certain details (like being born in another country)? Obama refuses to authorize the release of his HI vital records. What is he hiding? A foreign birth? Is he even a US citizen?
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From CDR Kerchner:
"I Believe The Fix Was In for the 2008 Election and The Cover Up is Still Going Strong!"
"I believe that the RNC and DNC at the highest levels in 2008 were both complicit in shutting down all discussion of Obama's constitutional eligibility issue in the Congress,Main Stream Media,Print Press,and in the leading conservative Talk Show radio stations."
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2010/01/i-believe-fix-w…
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I'll go beyond what CDR Kerchner has written —the "fix was in"long before 2008. Statements from Republicans about this issue are worthless.
You said:“If anyone is reading these exchanges,the above two paragraphs tell you all that is needed about the approach taken by the Obama supporters —it's all up to the voters —the Constitution does not matter.”
This is not what I said,and it is not what the Constitution holds. The Constitution specifies that it is all up to the voters. The Constitution matters most of all,and it specifies that there shall be elections for president. It does not say that persons who do not have two US citizens as their parents are not eligible. They are eligible. The choice between them is left up to us in the election. Even criminals are eligible,but again,we have the choice. The Constitution matters,and that is what it holds.
You said:‘They would have people believe "native"and "natural"mean the same thing.”
Not at all. Native and Natural do NOT mean the same thing. ALL native-born citizens are Natural Born Citizens. BUT,not all Natural Born Citizens are native born citizens. ALL Native-born citizens fall under the Natural Born Citizen category. Not vice versa.
Some Natural Born Citizens,such as McCain,were not native born. Obama was native-born due to his birth in Hawaii,which by the way was proven by the official birth certificate of the state.
Getting back to all native born citizens are natural born citizens.
“Natural born citizen. Persons who are born within the jurisdiction of a national government,i.e. in its territorial limits,or those born of citizens temporarily residing abroad.”—Black’s Law Dictionary,Sixth Edition
As you can see,ALL citizens born in the jurisdiction of the USA (meaning in the USA ) are Natural Born Citizens,and some other citizens,such as McCain,who were born to US citizens temporarily residing abroad are also Natural Born Citizens.
You said:‘What if voters are not informed about certain details (like being born in another country)? “
Obama was born in the USA,in Hawaii. Obama’s mother probably did not have a passport in 1961,so she could not have gone to Kenya as alleged. His Kenyan grandmother never said that he was born in Kenya. She said that he was born in Hawaii,as his official birth certificate from Hawaii shows,and the facts on it were confirmed twice by the officials in Hawaii. In their first confirmation they said that there is an original birth certificate in the file.
You said:“Obama refuses to authorize the release of his HI vital records. “
Not true. He cannot have his original birth certificate released because Hawaii does not release original birth certificates for anyone. ANYONE. That is caused by the regulations in Hawaii (http://www.starbulletin.com/columnists/kokualine/… and they have been decided on by a Republican governor’s administration. But the short-form birth certificate is the official birth certificate,and it is accepted as proof of birth in the USA by the US State Department and the branches of the military,and it has been confirmed twice by the officials in Hawaii,and there is not a shred of proof that Obama was born anywhere else than Hawaii.
You said:“What is he hiding? A foreign birth? Is he even a US citizen?”
In addition to the two officials saying twice that the original document shows that Obama was born in Hawaii,and his Kenyan grandmother saying that he was born in Hawaii,and this witness saying that he was born in Hawaii (based on what she was told,it is true [
http://www.buffalonews.com/494/story/554495.html)”target=”_blank”>http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:7lxgRu-fdYQJ:…”target=”_blank”>http://www.buffalonews.com/494/story/554495.html) and Obama’s mother not having a passport in 1961,Hawaii did not allow foreign births to be registered in Hawaii in 1961,so the original birth certificate in the file cannot have been a foreign birth certificate.
You said:"I Believe The Fix Was In for the 2008 Election and The Cover Up is Still Going Strong!"
And some people still believe that space aliens have landed and their bodies are stored in Rosewell,NM.
Obama has proven that he was born in Hawaii. All citizens born in the USA are Natural Born Citizens. Obama was elected 69 million to 59 million. McCain accepted the results of the election. Obama received a solid majority of votes in the Electoral College. In fact,he received all 365 that he won in the general election despite a campaign by birthers and two-fers to have Electors change their votes based on their allegations. Obama was confirmed unanimously by the US Congress. Obama was sworn in by the Chief Justice of the United States. Two plus two equals four.
From an earlier post by granite1:
"Also,if a child is born of one or two aliens,even one or two illegal aliens,that certainly does not make the child like Saddam Hussein or Charles Manson. That child might be a rather good person after all. So,who decides? The voters,of course."
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"—if a child is born of one or two aliens,even one or two illegal aliens"
"So,who decides? The voters,of course."
Folks,the Obama supporters want everyone to believe that even a child with triple citizenship at birth has EXACTLY the same status as a child born to two US citizens.
That is nonsense. It defies all logic.
Understand,granite1 and similiar commenters don't deal with logic and facts. They can't and still defend Obama. Their goal is to confuse and conflate.
Now look at this from granite1:
"ALL native-born citizens are Natural Born Citizens. BUT,not all Natural Born Citizens are native born citizens. ALL Native-born citizens fall under the Natural Born Citizen category. Not vice versa."
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See how "natural"and "native"have been been reversed? Another attempt to confuse the casual reader.
From CDR Kerchner:
"While a natural born Citizen is obviously a Citizen at birth,not all Citizens at birth are natural born Citizens. The two legal terms of art are not identical and are not equal."
"Most citizens of the USA are natural born citizens. Most citizens of the USA were born in the USA to two parents who were citizens of the USA. And that is the pool of citizens that must be chosen from for the singular most powerful office in our nation,the President and Commander-in-Chief of our military. Simple citizenship at birth by being born in the USA without regard to the citizenship status of both your parents …or by naturalization and swearing an oath to this country and renouncing all allegiances foreign kings,princes,and potentates later as an adult,is adequate for the offices of Senator,Representative,or a Governor of a state. But it is not sufficient to be the President under Article II,to Constitutional standards. Article II requires that the person to be eligible to be President must be a "natural born Citizen". And that means that person must be born in the USA …AND …both his parents must be citizens of the USA."
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2009/07/citizen-at-birt…
You said:“"While a natural born Citizen is obviously a Citizen at birth,not all Citizens at birth are natural born Citizens. The two legal terms of art are not identical and are not equal."
Kerchner is wrong. ALL citizens at birth are Natural Born Citizens.
“Natural born citizen. Persons who are born within the jurisdiction of a national government,i.e. in its territorial limits,or those born of citizens temporarily residing abroad.”—Black’s Law Dictionary,Sixth Edition
and Yale Law Review wrote:“It is well settled that “native-born”citizens,those born in the United States,qualify as natural born.”
And such prominent conservative Senators who are also lawyers as Orren Hatch and Lindsay Graham say that a Natural Born Citizen is simply one who was born in the USA:
Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC),said:
“Every child born in the United States is a natural-born United States citizen except for the children of diplomats.”(December 11,2008 letter to constituent)
Senator Orrin G. Hatch (R-UT),said:
“What is a natural born citizen? Clearly,someone born within the United States or one of its territories is a natural born citizen.”(Senate Judiciary Committee hearing hearing on OCTOBER 5,2004)
You said:‘"Most citizens of the USA are natural born citizens.”
Yes,and so is Obama since he was born in the USA.
You also said:“Most citizens of the USA were born in the USA to two parents who were citizens of the USA. “
This is true now,but during the great age of immigration,most US Natural Born Citizens were born to one or two parents who were at one time not US citizens. Some may have been born after the naturalization of their parents,some before,but so long as they were born in the USA,they are Natural Born Citizens.
Andrew Jackson,by the way had TWO parents who were not citizens at the time of his birth. Are you saying that if he ran for president today,he would not be eligible?
You also said:“And that means that person must be born in the USA …AND …both his parents must be citizens of the USA."
That is an opinion. It is not the law,and it is not believed by the overwhelming majority of constitutional scholars,and it is not believed by the US federal courts which repeatedly describe the US-born children of one or two foreigners as Natural Born Citizens. All this stems from the Wong Kim Ark ruling,which described EVERY child born in the USA as Natural Born.
You quote Kerchner:"While a natural born Citizen is obviously a Citizen at birth,not all Citizens at birth are natural born Citizens. The two legal terms of art are not identical and are not equal."
Kerchner is wrong. ALL US citizens who were born in the USA are Natural Born Citizens. Only Naturalized citizens are not Natural Born Citizens.
Yale Law Review wrote:"It is well settled that “native-born”citizens,those born in the United States,qualify as natural born. It is also clear that persons born abroad of alien parents,who later become citizens by naturalization,do not. "(Jill A. Pryor,Yale Law Review,1988)
"It is well settled that “native-born”citizens,those born in the United States,qualify as natural born.(Jill A. Pryor,Yale Law Review,1988)"
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Of course,this is more nonsense. The effort to undermine the Constitutional requirement of “native-born”status for POTUS is not just a recent development.
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"An associate lawyer in a Chicago-based firm whose partner served on a finance committee for then-Sen. Barack Obama has advocated for the elimination of the U.S. Constitution's requirement that a president be a "natural-born"citizen,calling the requirement "stupid"and asserting it discriminates,is outdated and undemocratic.
The paper was written in 2006 by Sarah Herlihy,just two years after Obama had won a landslide election in Illinois to the U.S. Senate. Herlihy is listed as an associate at the Chicago firm of Kirkland &Ellis. A partner in the same firm,Bruce I. Ettelson,cites his membership on the finance committees for both Obama and Sen. Richard Durbin on the corporate website."
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pag…
"Obama –Maybe a Citizen of the United States but Not a Natural Born Citizen"
"Because Obama was born 173 years after the Constitution was adopted,he cannot take advantage of Article II’s now obsolete grandfather clause which would have allowed him to be eligible to be President if he could conclusively prove that he was a “citizen of the United States”(by conclusively proving he was born in Hawaii). Since he cannot utilize the grandfather clause,he must conclusively prove he is a “natural born Citizen”to be eligible to be President. But Obama’s birth circumstances show that,even if he were born in Hawaii as he claims,he cannot satisfy his constitutional obligation under Article II. Obama’s father,being born in the then-British colony of Kenya,was under the British Nationality Act 1948 a British subject/citizen and not a United States Citizen when Obama was born in 1961. Being here only temporarily on a student visa,he was not domiciled or permanently residing in the United States. Obama himself in 1961 by descent from his father was also born a British subject/citizen under that same 1948 Act. If Obama was born in Hawaii (…),which would make him a dual citizen from birth of the United States and Great Britain,he could qualify as a “Citizen of the United States”under a liberal and questionable interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment. But because his father was not a United States citizen when Obama was born,he was born subject to a foreign power which he inherited from his father. Being born subject to a foreign power like a naturalized citizen,he is not an Article II “natural born Citizen”and therefore is not eligible to be President and Commander in Chief of the Military of the United States."
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2010/03/obama-maybe-cit…
TYPO:requirement of “native-born”= "natural -born"
For additional background on a wide array of unanswered eligibility questions including the "natural born citizenship"question,it can be helpful to look athttp://eligibilityquestions.com . As and when law suits and legal actions in process reach the discovery stage,there will then be an opportunity for the courts,including ultimately the Supreme Court,to render a decision concerning the Founders'intent when they included the "natural born citizenship"requirement in the "eligibility clause"of Article 2,Section 1 of the Constitution.